CPK

This is most Street Radio from PRX. I'm your host. Christopher Kimball, some of the most memorable moments in politics haven't happened in speeches or debates. They've been all about food.

KS

Dr Oz, famously, when he was trying to run, went into a grocery store and took out some precut vegetables and said the price of crudite is through the roof and dead, dead in the water.

CPK

What can food tell you about a politician?

I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies and had teas, but what I decided to do was to fulfill my profession.

I love hot dogs. I love them in buns. I love them outside of buns. I love them with baked beans. I'll

get the wheat bread

where I can tell Michelle or vino. There you go. Yeah.

CPK But first, it's my interview with Gary he about his forthcoming book mcatless, which tells the story of how McDonald's rose to the top of the global food chain by localizing its menu items.

CPK Gary, welcome to milk Street.

GH Thank you so much for having me.

CPK So let's just summarize the beginnings of McDonald's and how it got started.

GH Well, McDonald's started off as a burger stand in San Bernardino, California at the height of the automobile boom, post war. And then gentleman by the name of Ray Kroc heard about this burger stand that was just constantly filled with lines, and when he showed up, he was just so amazed by it that by the time he got back to Chicago, he was phoning up the brothers, writing them letters asking them to become their national franchise manager, and I think within 10 years, McDonald's Corporation was public and had 1000s of locations around the United States and then started expanding around the world.

CPK

So let's start with our basic menu, keeping it simple at the beginning, but over time, as you point out in your book mcatless, the choices expanded. So what was the original menu and what were some of the key moments when the menu started to get bigger?

GH So the original menu was just the 15 cent hamburger cheeseburger, fries and shakes. But the first localized menu item was in a Cincinnati suburb that was predominantly Catholic, and so the franchisee there, Lou groen, basically found that he was not getting customers on Friday, and so needed to add something like a fish sandwich. And Ray Kroc initially refused to allow fish sandwiches to stink up his restaurants, but then eventually said, Okay, let's have a competition, my pineapple hula burger versus your fish sandwich. Well, I think the hula burger sold something like six units, versus the filet o fish selling north of 300 units in a single day. And now the filet o fish sandwich is sold basically worldwide.

CPK

Some of the things I don't get though, like, I get the, you know, fish filet, but what about, like, poutine, I mean, like, you're talking about fries and gravy and cheese. I mean, milkshake. We talk a lot about brand, right? Because we can't be all things to all people, and we have to be true to what we like and what we stand for. I would think that if McDonald's started as a burger franchise, right chain, and you start doing poutine, all sorts of other things, you're no longer a burger chain. You're a low cost fast fast food provider, because your menu no longer makes sense. So anything goes like, anything that's popular locally, that you could possibly do in a fast food environment is fair game for them.

GH Yeah. I mean, I think that was Ray Kroc initial anxiety over adding any menu items, right? But you end up in these situations where you know you're competing against someone that sells like rice and chicken in a market like Indonesia, and you're not gonna survive unless you have some version of that, right? And so in order to get people to the point where they are eating Big Macs and McNuggets after that initial hype period where they're just trying it for the first time, right? You really do need to kind of kowtow to these local tastes. And so I thought that was what was fascinating about the entire project, and why I started doing it. Because you have this behemoth company, McDonald that has the most restaurants around the world. Is making more money than any other restaurant chain, and yet they have to modify their menu in order to survive. In some of these markets, they've had to add spaghetti in the Philippines, you know, like bone and chicken all across Southeast Asia, rice bowls, porridge and so I thought that. Extremely fascinating to see, because I think a lot of the times you assume in this whole anxiety over globalization and homogenization of diets, and then everyone's just going to eat Big Macs and McNuggets, that that really isn't happening. Right? The locals have a lot of power, and they determine what they're being served, even by the biggest restaurant group in the world.

CPK

Yeah, it does sort of surprise me a little well, if you have a local dish, whether it's a rice bowl or it's, you know, the poutine, obviously, people are very familiar with that dish, and I think would know the difference between a really good version and, you know, a cheap version. So yeah, you're getting your national dish or a popular dish, right? But it's not going to be, you know, if you grew up with it, it's not going to be nearly as good as what you grew up with. So I guess that's okay, because, you know, it's, it's good value.

GH I actually think that the McDonald's version of some of these dishes is more expensive than what they would get from a street vendor. I think it's, like, kind of the allure of eating inside a McDonald's, right? They want that, like, bit of Americana. I mean, they don't, I don't think they consider it fast food, like we consider it here, right? I think their perception of the brand is very different, but they are not yet ready, or they are not in the mood to eat a burger, but,

CPK but tell me about I think that's really interesting. What you just said. You're saying they perceive McDonald's as part of the American experience, and it has a a higher perceived value in other countries?

GH Yeah, I, I truly believe that like sort of seeing how people just spend time sitting inside the stores, right? And in the US, the stores are basically empty. It's mostly a delivery and drive through game, right? Whereas the McDonald's stores are being used as third place is where people congregate throughout the day, after school, into the evening. And I think to locals, it feels like you know this is a nice, air conditioned, clean space for me to hang out in and but I'm not sure I want to eat a Big Mac right now. But I do know what you know Nasi Lemak is right. I do know bone in fried chicken, right? And so I'm gonna go for that. So

CPK

the first meal after Ramadan fasting, Ramadan, some McDonald's actually do this.

GHOh yeah, observing the breaking of the Ramadan fast inside a McDonald's in Morocco. Is the reason why I started doing the project, because McDonald's had on the order in kiosk a store meal, which is a kit that helps you break the fast right? It's a It's component items that you would normally consume Traditionally, it was like a bowl of Herrera soup, and then dates and then a sweet local pastry called chebakia, and then, like a milk yogurt. And from my understanding, in Saudi Arabia, it's actually illegal to advertise food during the daytime during Ramadan, and so they have this advertising for McDonald's, where it's kind of like an hourglass with sand, where the sand slowly uncovers the golden arches and then turns into like a burger on the bottom. And so it's never truly advertising food until it gets to the point where you can actually order the Big Mac and eat the Big Mac or what have you. And it explains why. You know, when I was doing field work in Saudi Arabia, there were dozens, if not hundreds of families just in the food court waiting to break their fast with McDonald's right. McDonald's is the only restaurant of dozens of options in this shopping mall food court that had a line of people waiting to order.

CPK So to do mcatless, to do this project, how long did it take? How many countries did you go to? And why did you do it?

GH I did it because it's the largest restaurant group in the world. I'm a food journalist, and it was unbelievable to me that no one had cataloged or documented how the largest restaurant chain in the world had expanded into all these countries. And so over a three year period, I went to 56 countries across six continents, many, many times, like major markets like Japan and France. I had to go several times because the menus are constantly shifting, and you need to do field work where you're sitting in the restaurant and just observing how people are using the spaces.

CPK How did you get paid enough money to go to 56 countries over I went two or three years. That's a lot of time. Yeah,

GH so it's a completely self financed project, and McDonald's has nothing to do with it. It's purely journalistic. And

GPK the question everybody asks you the one dish after all this that you really wish they'd bring to the United States? Is I

GH really enjoyed the egg bogogi burger in South Korea. I think that's like on the Mount Rushmore of McDonald's international items. And the other one, I would say, is corn pie a la mode from Thailand,

CPK Gary. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

GH Thank you for having me.

CPK That was Gary he his book mcatless comes out in November.

Now it's time to answer your cooking questions with my co host, Sarah Moulton. Sarah is, of course, the star of Sarah's weeknight meals on public television. Also author of home cooking 101. Sarah, so you have a big pantry at home. I do too. Are there some things now you just find things you would have bought 10 years ago that you just don't like anymore, you don't think works in your cooking, or the quality is not very good. Have you pared down your pantry,

SM

yes and no. I mean, on the one hand, I think we both agree that we have many more fun spices to play with, you know, like Zatar and sumac and so, you know, things like that are now more populating my cupboard than what I used to have. But my niece was staying with me for a week. And she's one of those people who can organize everything. She could have 500 million careers. She may end up as president, but she said, oh, we need to organize your pantry. Well, we started with throwing out two thirds of it because the expiration date was long, long, long, long, long gone. And I also realized, yeah, you're right, Chris. There are a lot of things now I'm trying to think, what were the things I tossed because I just knew I would never use them. I'm afraid. I'm sort of speechless because they're gone, and I'm glad, but it was so nice when we were done and the dust settled, and I looked in there and I was like, Oh, now I know what I have. How nice is that?

CPK

Well, my problem is I have six of the same thing because I can't remember I bought it, you know? So I have like, four things of mirin, et cetera, et cetera. There is one thing I'll say I just started buying and they use it in Italy, which I was surprised about, canned cherry tomatoes. Oh, my God, yes.

SM

I discovered a brand. I think it is made in Italy during the pandemic. They're great. I love cherry tomatoes to death. I'll admit I eat them out of season, because you can find them. They've been grown on the vine. I always salt them before I use them, but the canned ones are really, really good. I agree with you. They are good. That is an exciting discovery.

CPK

We agreed on something, oh

SM

my goodness, amazing. Let's take our call. Yes. Welcome to milk Street. Who's calling?

Hi. This

is Chris from Cape May New Jersey.

SM

Hi, Chris. What is your question? Well, I

am a pizza maker, and I inherited it from my mother when she passed. My problem is I didn't have her recipes, so I got one online that looked good, and I've been using it, but the cookies tend to be a little thick at times thicker than I'd like, and the batter gets a little thick at times also. So I was wondering if it could be I'm using butter. But when I looked online, I saw a lot of Italian cooks use oil. So that was one of my questions. And then the others, in storing it, sometimes they tend to get a little soft, so I was wondering how I could improve on the crispness, I guess, and the thinness of the cookie, all right?

SM

Well, let's just start as defining what these cookies are, for people who don't know they are Italian waffle cookies. It's a fairly thin batter that you put on a waffle iron, two sided, right? Yes,

and it's a non stick. My mother's was cast iron, but I use a cruisin art one.

SM

They're sort of a star shape. They could be flavored with any kind of extract. But the one that I'm familiar with, my cousin's wife, Nina, who's Italian, makes them with anise. Do you use anise also?

Yes, I

do. And then a couple days ago, my sister found my mom's recipe, and here it was the same as mine, almost, except for a little bit more sugar, and hers had anise seed in it, which I've never seen or remember her using, so I don't know if she switched to oil,

SM

yeah. Or an x ray. What occurs to me when you say sometimes they're a little thick is, first of all, your recipe, I'm sure is in cups, not in grams or ounces, right, correct. You're not weighing. You're measuring. That means that the recipe, when you mix it could be slightly different every time, even though you're the person making it okay. And the trouble with when it gets thicker is that what keeps it crispy is being able to spread it fairly thin on the iron. You need to get used to what the proper thicknesses of the batter for you to spread it thin so that they stay crisp. Add a little more liquid. The liquid in there is either the oil or the butter. Store it in a, you know, one of those containers with wax paper in between. Probably, if it's thicker, it's going to tend. To get a more soggy anyway, but let's see, Chris, have you ever made pizzelle? My

CPK

neighbor in Vermont across the valley, she was Italian, second generation Italian that made pizzelle, and they were phenomenal. She used oil nut butter, which I think tends to make them crispier. Forget about the recipe in that it's all about getting the text to write, as Sarah said, and what's going to happen is that texture is that texture is going to change over time, because it better sits, it gets thicker, like when I do waffles, for example, I'm looking for a very particular type of thickness to cover the waffle iron, so you're going to have to adjust it as you go along. I would suggest oil. I think that's going to make a slightly crispier batter. What kind of oil? Grape seed oil is my go to oil? I don't like canola oil. I think it tastes fishy. Fishy. I do too. It's all about the texture, and I would just adjust it as you go along.

SM

I'd also say, make them more often.

CPK

They're so good.

I do. My brother in law loves them, and actually my niece and my son both show interest. So I bought them each and iron, and I started getting them to make

SM

them. Oh, great. Please let us know how it goes.

CPK

Yeah, I will do thank you. Yeah, good for you. Thanks for coming.

SM

Thank you. Bye, bye,

CPK

this is milk Street Radio. If you're having trouble in the kitchen, Sarah and I are always here to help. Give us a ring. 85542698431, more time, 855-426-9843, or email us at [email protected]

SM

Welcome to milk Street. Who's calling?

Hi. This is Lori Pearson, calling from st Paris, Ohio. Hi, Lori,

SM

what is your question today?

Last summer, my husband and I went on a Rhine river cruise, and one of our day trips was visiting the doke horf Vinegar estate in germs, chime Spire, Germany. When we were there, we participated in a vinegar tasting, and we purchased several bottles of vinegar to bring home with us. I searched the internet, and was ecstatic to find that we actually had a few olive oil vinegar specialty stores within 30 to 50 miles of our house. My questions are, am I being fooled by these products and just wasting my money?

SM

Well, let me ask you a few more questions. What vinegars Did you love in Germany and bring home with you.

What were they? Mainly, they were the fruit ones. What kind of fruit the ones in Germany, like ingredients are vinegar, grape juice, honey, herbal and spice extracts.

SM

How did you use them when you came home?

Primarily, we put them on salads. And when we actually located these other stores, we actually got some infused olive oils to go along with our vinegars, which was very nice, too.

SM

And why do you think that you're being had? If you like them, you like them. But anyway, tell me why you fell out of love.

Well, I was just curious as to ask you guys if you had used any of these flavored olive oils or Islamic vinegars, these flavored ones, and besides salad, what you could use them on?

SM

You know, there's something to be said for tasting the food in a country when you're there on vacation, it's magical. Sometimes you remember the food is better than maybe perhaps it actually was. Or when you bring back the vinegar, it brings back wonderful memories. I myself do not really enjoy the fruit flavored vinegars or the infused oils. I sort of like to keep it simple, but let's see what Chris has to say. Just

CPK

so I understand when you had it there, you liked it.

It was just, I guess it took me by surprise. They had these lovely, long stem, hand Glass Blown glasses that they would pour just the, maybe it's teaspoon, tablespoon of the vinegar, in, and give you just the taste. And they'd have you curl your tongue a little bit and put the vinegar in the middle of your tongue and let it slowly go back to the back of your throat before you would swallow. And it was just, was fascinating. It gave me a whole new reason for like, enjoying vinegar.

CPK

Well, first of all, it was definitely experiential, right? Because they had the glass. I mean, look, you said, you said the beautiful. I mean, this is a romantic experience, but it's all about the underlying vinegar, right? There's like vinegar I use all the time called calamansi, which is based on sour oranges, and it is unbelievably fabulous. I use no other vinegar at this point, but it's very low acid, which I think is one thing to look at in these flavored vinegars. Are they six or 7% acid, or they 4% it's not about the flavoring as much as about the vinegar itself. So if it's very good vinegar and well made fine, but I find just getting a really good vinegar you can use every day is the basis you could add flavors as you go right to a salad dressing or to vegetables or whatever. That's really the most. Important thing. But if you if you have a really good vinegar that's flavored and you like it fine, the ones that I see in the supermarket, and I've tried them, and Sarah's tried them too, you're dealing with third rate vinegar, and then they just call it BlackBerry vinegar, or whatever the thing is, but it sounds like that vinegar, if it's low acid, that's the first thing you want so it doesn't overpower everything. So would you

use it on me? Sure, pre cook or after you cook it,

CPK

after you cook it, like balsamic vinegar in Italy, is drizzled over everything. It's drizzled over fruit. It's drizzled over cheese, drizzle over meat, sure, ice cream. What you should probably do is turn off the lights, light some candles, get some beautiful crystal glasses and recreate the experience, and then you're going to be back in Germany. So anyway,

you know, funny, you've talked about it being romantic with the glasses and whatnot. The actual vinegar bottle that I have in front of me, the name of the flavor that is called Casanova.

CPK

There you go.

SM

We rest our case.

CPK

The only last thing I would say is, when people make salads and they dress them, they use way too much dressing, like three times more than they need. So just use a little bit of vinegar, a little bit of olive oil, toss it with your hands. Clean hands, a little bit of salt, maybe some herbs, and just be very frugal with the dressing. And that way you could use a flavor vinegar, and it would be nice, but just don't use too much.

Should vinegars be refrigerated?

CPK

No, no,

SM

it's mostly acid, and acid is one of the great preservatives. That's why Sarah and I are well preserved. Yes,

CPK

sounds like it was a great cruise. Yeah, oh, it

was lovely. And, and I think, if nothing else, it seems like I have a new hobby with the vinegars. Yes, thank you so much for taking my call. It

CPK

was a pleasure. Yes, yes, sorry.

SM

Thank you. Bye, bye, bye, bye.

CPK

You're listening to milk Street Radio coming up food and cooking on the campaign trail. This is milk Street Radio. I'm your host, Christopher Kimball, every election cycle, politicians, as well as their food choices, come into the spotlight in one episode of the HBO comedy Veep, the Vice President's team tries to plan what flavor she should order at a frozen yogurt shop.

Mint.

It implies freshness, trust, traditional values fascinating. This is one of my areas, yeah, food choices, seriously, put it up.

CPK

By the time the Vice President arrives at the shop, she has developed a stomach bug, yeah? But aren't dairy products bad

for your stomach, or you gotta eat the yogurt now, I

mean, there'll be cameras on you. This is like dairy death con luck, yeah?

How do you do

CPK

to help explain why we care about what politicians eat. I'm joined now by New York Times food correspondent Kim Severson, Kim, welcome back to milk Street.

KS

Always a pleasure. Mr. Kimball.

CPK

So let's start with my favorite moment, the sort of you know, the donut shop thing. Yes, candidates, you know, both in donut shops within a couple weeks of each other. So what does that tell you? And why don't you describe the scene? Well, you

KS

know, we had JD Vance in Georgia walking into a donut shop. It's already not a good setup. He walks in, and immediately one of the women behind the counter says, I don't want to be on TV. I don't want to be filmed. And so he turns around and said, Oh yeah, yeah, we she doesn't. We got to block her out. And then you have this awkward moment, whereas his hands are folded, and he asks the guy how long he's been working there, and the guy says, you know, whatever, two years or and, and do you have Vance just going, oh? And then there's dead silence. So clearly he's uncomfortable in a food situation like that. Now, Vance's he supposedly cooks a lot of the meals at his home. He's called his mother in law to learn how to cook some of the vegetarian Indian food she grew up liking. It's not like the guy doesn't cook, but certainly he's not comfortable around food culture. And really, what that says, in large part, is that he had a bad, advanced team. You know, you don't send them in unarmed, like that, right? But then, when you had Tim Walz at a at an apple cider mill picking out donuts. And, you know, this guy's He's a natural in a food setting,

perfect day. How are you today? Good. Thanks for having us. Oh, man, smelling good. There are three states that claim lay claim to the whoopie pie, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts and Maine. So who has Pennsylvania? All right, that's what I needed to know. That's what we needed to know. One

KS

thing I think is so interesting about that is the way people read politics into situations that aren't necessarily that there was a moment at the. End of Waltz's visit to the donut shop, where he said, I don't have a problem picking out donuts. And immediately the Washington Post and people are like, Oh, he totally burned Vance. And Vance can't pick out a donut, and waltz can and and really, if you watch it, he was patting his stomach, as we often do, and say, you know, I got no problem with my groceries. Here is what he was trying to say. So it's very interesting that that turned into a Democrat versus Republican donut gate.

CPK

I thought the moment when Vance, he says to the guy about the selection, he says, What donuts you might says, well, just pick out whatever makes sense to you. And I'm just going like, who goes into a donut shop and goes like, will you pick them? Right? Because that obviously means he's that he has no intention of eating exactly,

KS

just everything. Yeah. I

mean, a lot of glaze here, some sprinkle stuff, somebody sitting rolls, just

whatever makes sense.

CPK

What does this tell us about these two people, Vance Rhino walls and two, does anybody care? In other words, what does food? Is food going to impact anybody's decision to vote in any way you think? Well,

KS

I think at the vice presidential level, it probably won't. It will become, you know, fodder for late night TV jokes and for each side to say, look at this guy's an idiot. I think it does make a difference, particularly in this race at the presidential level, in particular, because Kamala Harris is a very unique presidential candidate in that she really has seamlessly put cooking and food into her campaign when she was running for president, the first time she had a cooking with Kamala little series during the pandemic. She would have, you know, Tom Colicchio and some other food folks on cooking with her, Jose Andres, Who, then, you know, can move into the territory about food policy and feeding the hungry and disaster relief. So there's a conduit from food to policy there on her side.

So will you start cooking? I

will start cooking. And then let's talk about our feed act, because you inspired a piece of legislation in the United States Senate that is a bipartisan piece of legislation that is going to if we can get it passed the federal government in giving local restaurants grants to feed the hungry. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do my garlic and my ginger while you're talking.

KS

I think especially now that you've got a lot of Gen Z and millennials coming up who are much more versed in where food comes from cooking, I think it matters to them in a kind of a fundamental way that it maybe hadn't in other generations. So I think it matters on that side, on the other side, I think for a lot of voters who like Trump, you know, you'll remember when he had the, I think the Clemson football team up, and he had them to the White House, and he had a giant buffet table full of all the big fast food names, right? So there were stacks of burgers and Taco Bell and, you know, he loves fast food. He did a lot of food like Pizza Hut commercials and things back in the day.

You really think this is the right thing for us to be doing, Ivana, but do people think let him talk Ivan? Ivan, Ivana, it's wrong, isn't it, but it feels so right, and it's a deal. Yes, we eat our pizza the wrong way crust. First introducing stuffed crust, pizza from Pizza with a ring of cheese baked into a totally new, thinner crust. You'll want to eat it the wrong way crust. First. I have the last slice. Actually, you're only entitled to half large, just 999,

KS

in part. I think it feels American in the special way fast food is American. And I think that's a sort of a wrap yourself in a flag and a Chick fil A sandwich persona that a lot of people can relate to as well.

CPK

So what you're saying is, in the old days, you say something about bush or something so well, you know, I like to have a beer with that guy. And now, what you're really saying is that the food, in a much bigger sense, is sort of replacing that concept of, you know, I'd like to cook with that person, or it's, it's a more expansive view of who they are relation to food.

KS

I think that's true, because I think the role Food plays as cultural currency is very different than it was. You know, Clinton, famously, you remember he would jog to McDonald's, and that was kind of a transitional, want to have a beer with him, kind of moment, right? The guy jogs to McDonald's, I could have a McDonald's with him. And I think you saw food showing up in ways that kind of helped and hurt candidates, you know at the grocery store, I think you'll remember Obama's famous Have you seen the price of arugula at Whole Foods, which cemented him as a you know that that liberal elite and Dr Oz, famously, when he was trying to run, went into a grocery store and. Took out some pre cut vegetables and said the price of crudite is through the roof and dead, dead in the water gone,

right? Thought I did some grocery shopping. I met Wagner's, and my wife wants some vegetables for crude a day, right? So here's a broccoli that's two bucks, not a ton of broccoli there. There's some asparagus that's $4 Yep, carrots, that's four more dollars. That's $10 of vegetables there. And then we need some guacamole that's $4 more. And she loves salsa. Yeah? Salsa there $6 must be a shortage of salsa, guys, that's $20 for cruite, and this doesn't include a tequila.

I mean, that's outrageous.

We got Joe Biden to thank for

KS

this. So I think the idea is, do they know their way around a kitchen? Do they know how to walk through a farmer's market? Are they not just showing up at the donut shop? But are they like, look, I like sprinkles, but what's the freshest donut in the case. Like people would love that, right? But there still is, of course, political shtick in this whole thing, right? You know you're you've got to eat the pork chop on a stick. Probably ill advised to eat corn dogs on camera for the obvious implications. So I think I would advise any candidate never eat the corn dog. But, but you've also seen these things stick around for a long time. Gerald Ford famously tried to eat a tamale with the husk still on it. Oh, yeah, yeah. And that sort of led to his persona as the bumbling guy. Hillary Clinton, of course, fell into the gender trap, but I think it's so interesting that we're moving beyond the cooking gender trap with Kamala Harris, which is, I think, the other really significant shift here, Hillary Clinton fought the, you know, housewife in the White House kind of thing. I suppose

I could have stayed home and baked cookies and had teas, but what I decided to do was to fulfill my profession, which I entered before my husband was in

KS

public life, Hillary Clinton famously used that line during her presidential run as sort of a and they said I was going to bake cookies. And, you know, became this sort of sisterhood power. We're out of the kitchen. But I think that did a little bit of a disservice to cooks, in a way, you know, because I really would like someone who can bake a good cookie.

CPK

I think, I think one thing is interesting to me is how people react around food. I think Mitt Romney, there was the, I don't know if you remember this an interview with him in his New Hampshire House, and he was making a sandwich and spreading mayo on white bread, right? And it was the most awkward. First of all, mayo and white bread with, you know, like bologna or something, but he was so awkward around food. And I think he lost that election in part. I mean, obviously this guy, you know, would have been a competent executive, whether you liked him or not, but he was so bad at relating to people. I have a binder full of women. Remember that whole thing, right? Which was

KS

horrible, and I've made sandwiches for them all. No, he, yeah, he came off as a stiff, and his sandwich making skill absolutely underscored that, you

CPK

know, FDR, because of his radio talks, I guess people felt he was in their living room, but he was as high born as you can get, so he was hardly the common man. Yet, Americans always have this feeling that we're all about the common man. And you want to, you know, relate to somebody we also were in love with, the Kennedys and the Roosevelts and the in the royalty of politics, how do you reconcile the royalty on one hand and the common man on the other? Well, you

KS

know, I think it also, again, speaks to the changing nature of how we eat in America, right? So everybody loved Jackie Onassis because she was bringing the French sensibility into the White House. So I think that spoke to an aspirational culture that Americans had, and maybe now the aspiration is, I can go to the farmer's market with Kamala Harris,

CPK

yeah. But I still think, you know, Kennedy used to quote Aristotle his speeches in a very offhand way. I mean, I think Americans want both. I think we, we miss the king and the queen. We want a little bit of royalty at the same time. We want people to be every day. I mean,

KS

there's a reason why Trump is an attractive candidates. Like, I like this guy because he eats like I do, but he's a, you know, supposedly, a billionaire, and I think that's like that so appealing, right? I can kind of, like, see myself with him, but he's also this, like, very successful, strong money making guy who golfs and eats Chick fil A, and I love you know it's there's a real relatability, but still that, you know, he represents a higher echelon in that way.

CPK

So on election night you'll be working, I'm sure you planning on having, or any of your your other reporter friends, you. Eating something in particular during that evening. Well, you

KS

know, traditionally, pizza is the food of election night in newsrooms across the country, and they always kind of make a big show of ordering, you know, a couple local pizzerias at the Times newsroom, so there will definitely be pizza. I think the best thing on election night try to eat some pizza. Stay calm. You can always make something. You can go in the kitchen, cook something. Get your mind off it. Then, of course, go back to the New York Times homepage and our famous needle. What's

CPK

the famous needle? Oh, Chris,

KS

we run an election needle that moves as different precincts come in that can go left or right, and you know, so the New York Times needle has been much malign. People went out for it as Halloween when dressed as the needle being being a fan of the Halloween costume yourself, as I know you are,

CPK

yes, the problem is my wife and I and the two young kids go out and I always get the worst costume, like, I don't get to be Scooby Doo or in any of the good guys, I get to be like, Velma, or something

KS

like Velma. I get Velma. Take this turtleneck. It's like,

CPK

you know, in Star Wars, I don't even get to be Chewbacca, you know. I probably get to be one of the drones. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, have a good election cycle. Yeah,

KS

it's fact. I really, truly think it's a fascinating time in terms of food and presidential politics. Now, I think we're really, we're really into some new territory. Well, there's

CPK

that guy who predicts elections, I guess, who's been pretty accurate over 40 years, and he has his 11 things, maybe we should, we you and I should do a food predictor, right? That would be good. So, so forget the needle. We'll do the whisk, right? I think that's a great idea. The Severson Kimball pole, right? We'll know, we'll know Kim as usual. It's a pleasure, and we'll talk again soon.

KS

Absolutely, Chris, thanks so much for having me on.

CPK

That was Kim Severson, food correspondent at the New York Times, politicians know that the right food choices will help them connect with voters. Hence Tim Walz eats porkchop on a stick for breakfast at the Minnesota State Fair. And perhaps the best example of all time is Caesar, who was well liked for living and eating like his troops, but culinary mistakes on the campaign trail can be near fatal, not knowing the price of milk that was George Bush, Sr eating a hot dog with a knife and fork British Prime Minister David Cameron, or asking for Swiss cheese instead of Cheese Whiz on a Philly Cheesesteak. John Kerry, the conundrum is that eating a bucket of KFC on Air Force One is a juxtaposition beyond the pale of credibility. So maybe our well fed politicians should endeavor to be common and instead take a page from Marie Antoinette, let them eat cake. Honesty is sometimes the best policy. You're listening to milk Street Radio coming up Alex I news and his quest for potato chip perfection. I'm Christopher Kimball, and this is milk Street Radio. I'm joined now by JM Hirsch to talk about this week's recipe, Colombian potato soup with chicken, corn and capers. JM, how are you? I'm doing great. You were in Colombia, and there are two kinds of soups, right? I mean, you find all over the world, chicken soup, potato soup, but in Colombia, sort of the national dish is a potato soup that also has chicken. So was this something you could find in every street corner? Is this something that's only homemade? Tell me about the soup.

It's called ahiyako, and it is absolutely everywhere. You know, it's kind of considered the essential one pot meal of Colombia. And for a long time it was considered kind of your family Sunday lunch, but now it's become as much an everyday as it is a special meal, and the potatoes are the star, even though it is a chicken soup. Potatoes obviously are very important to Colombian cuisine. But what was really interesting about this dish wasn't just the use of three different varieties of potatoes, which was really delicious, but the fact that it's all about layering flavors and texture, you know, something that is near and dear to our heart here at MILK street. But this just takes it to a whole new level. They really think about the ingredients, the way they're cooked, the way they're served, even as a way to maximize that layering. All those layers of texture and flavor come together, and it really ends up being a very delicious, satisfying and very hearty meal.

CPK

So how do you get lots of layers three different kinds of potatoes? But

that's where it starts, actually, is the three different types of potatoes. So they use three very classic Colombian potatoes and. Each one serves a different purpose. The pastusa is the first potato to go into the pot, and it's a very starchy potato that's intended to break down as it cooks, so it adds that kind of starchy viscosity and texture to the soup, which is delicious. And then they add a second potato, kind of midway through cooking the Crayola, and that has a very sweet flavor. And so that's intended to give a bit more body, but also that kind of sweet, chunky flavor. And then finally, the last potato to be added is the sabanera, which is a purple potato, and as it cooks, it retains its firmness. And again, that's a whole other layer of flavor and texture added to the soup.

CPK

What would you do if you came across one layer recipe? I mean, in the last eight years, you've been multi layer, I guess in this case, it's really also multi texture as well, right? It really is,

because in addition to the layers of potatoes, you've also got sweet corn that's usually added to the soup on the cob and cooked and served that way. Then you have creamy avocado. They also finish it actually with a splash of heavy cream. And what I found most fascinating about the cooking method is that all of those ingredients are put together and cooked together, but then they're separated for serving. And the idea is that all of those components are set aside at the table and you assemble your own serving bowl of ahiyako to suit you. So maybe you want more corn and less chicken and more potatoes. It was really, really a fun and fascinating and really, like, I say, multi textured dish that was so satisfying. So every

CPK

day is thanksgiving, and apparently, customize your plate the way you like it. Any problems bringing this back to milk street because we don't have the same potato? Yeah, we

didn't have the same potatoes, but we did a little bit of testing in the kitchen, and we found that we could substitute more common varieties here, such as russets, Yukon Golds and red bliss, each of those serving one of the roles of the more classic varieties of potato that are used in Colombia. But other than that, it was a really simple soup. We added corn kernels as well as corn on the cob. We liked the starchiness and the sweetness that the kernels themselves added to the soup, but mostly it was a pretty easy adaptation.

CPK

JM, thank you. Colombian potato soup with Chicken Corn and capers, the national dish of Colombia thanks. Thank

you. You can get the recipe for Colombian potato soup with chicken, corn and [email protected]

CPK

this is most your radio now it's time to check in with our French food scientist Alex. I news. Alex, how are you?

I'm good. Chris, I'm good, I've been working on a new endeavor of mine. I've been working on a new journey that has been taken a lot of space in my mind recently. Okay, even though I am French and I love my restaurant and the Michelin stars, one of my absolute favorite food is the potato chip. Okay, not A, not A gourmet potato chip with truffles or whatnot. No, no, just like this standard potato chip with no flavors that you can find in any grocery store. Then recently, I thought, what would it take to try and recreate a potato chip like this? Would it be rocket science?

CPK

Isn't this one of those things you should buy in a bag at the store? Or do you think you could do it better at home? Do

we need a reason for everything in this one that's true. So I've tried at home very briefly to try and make some I went to the grocery store, bought a few potatoes that are intended for French fries because I thought it would be pretty similar. Then I just try to fry a few slices of potatoes. I was able to get two different results. The first one, I managed to get some very crispy potato chips, but they were also very brown, very bitter, a little acrid. Then I did another batch, and I tweaked, you know, the variables, and I was able to get the potato chip that I consider to be perfection. It's a very pale and very thin potato chip, but it wasn't crispy at all. It was soggy. It was almost flexible. So facing this dilemma, I went to the best potato chip factory that I know in France, it's called Brett, and they managed to make the world's best potato chip in my eyes. So there, in this potato chip factory, it looked a bit like a NASA warehouse. There's crazy technology involved. The potatoes come in, they're washed, peeled. They are sliced very precisely. They are washed. Again. That was a bit of a surprise for me, because they try to remove as much starch from the slices as possible, and then they are fried in they call it a continuous fryer, but it's basically a fryer that is able to maintain the same temperature all along the frying process, which is critical for the stability and the quality of the oil. After the frying process, they basically tumble dry the potato chips, and then they season them, but I can do all of that more or less, in my studio in Paris. So what was the problem? No supermarket, nowhere will sell me the right potato variety to make potato chip as good as the one you can find in these grocery stores. The two main qualities they have are, number one, a very low water content. They basically feel like rocks, and that's very useful when you're frying the potato because you don't have to fry it for a very long time in order to cook it, because you don't have to remove the water. The second quality they have is that they have a low sugar content, and that is very critical if you're trying to produce pale yellow potato chips, because you won't have a Browning. You're not going to have like a very heavy Maya reaction if there's a low sugar content. So coming back from the potato chip factory, I had with me a whole bag full of this very specific potato variety called Lady Claire. And basically I did what I've done before, going to the potato factory, but this time with a bit more awareness. So instead of cutting the potatoes with a knife, I got them with the mandoline, in order to have them really, really consistent in terms of thickness. And then when I fry them, I did fry them in very, very small batches, in order to keep the oil at a stable temperature as much as possible in order not to damage the oil. And

CPK

so at the end of the day, that worked, because you had the right potatoes Right

exactly. I mean, all these little tweaks, improvement, sure they had now, didn't really solve the problem that I was facing, which was to try and replicate perfect potato chips at home. And I think the thing that I loved the most of the most painfully, was that it's impossible if you don't have the right potato variety.

CPK

Well, maybe you and I need to embrace the conclusion, which is that, once in a while, processed foods, they really know what they're doing, and they produce a great product, right? Yeah,

I knew it. And I have to admit exactly what you said, These guys, in terms of effectiveness, they know what they're doing

CPK

now, these are not potatoes anybody can buy, except on an industrial scale, is that? Right? No,

you can't buy them. I've tried to send emails to a factory in the Netherlands who's producing the variety for that potato chip factory. They won't sell me anything less than 100 kilos of these potatoes.

CPK

Well, I you know, I mean, just store them at 42 degrees in a dark place, and you can make potato chips for a year. Great.

I'll have them delivered at your door, if you don't mind,

CPK

Alex, I knows. Thank you so much. Another long journey only to end up back at the supermarket. Thank you, Alex.

My pleasure. Chris, bye, bye.

CPK

That was Alex. I News host of just a French Guy Cooking on YouTube. That's it for this week's show. Please don't forget, you can get more than 250 episodes of milk Street Radio at our website, milkstreetradio.com or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find out more about milkstreet at 177 milkstreet.com you can become a member, get 1000s of recipes, access our online cooking classes and get free shipping on all orders from the milk Street store. Can also learn about our latest book, milk street bakes. Please check us out on Facebook at Christopher Kimball's milk Street, Instagram at 177 milk Street. We'll be back next week, and thanks, as always, for listening. You

thanks.

Christopher Kimmel's milk Street Radio is produced by milk Street in association with GBH co founder, Melissa Baldino, Executive Producer, Annie cinsa Spa senior editor, Melissa Allison, Senior Producer, Sarah Clapp, associate producer, Caroline Davis, with production help from Debbie paddock. Additional editing by Sydney Lewis, audio mixing by Jay Allison at Atlantic public media in woods, Hole, Massachusetts. Theme music by tubab crew. Additional music by George my eggloth Christopher Kimmel. Street Radio is distributed. PRX, you.