Christopher Kimball: This is Milk Street Radio from PRX, and I'm your host, Christopher Kimball. Today we ask, what are the rules for dining out?

Maggie Hennessy: This is the funny thing, isn't it? About going out to eat, is like our human behavior is on display in a semipublic place.

CK: Is it ever okay to have your phone on the table.

MH: you know, because it's like, oh, you're most important to me, unless something more interesting happens on my phone.

CK: There are also situations that are real mine fields, like tipping.

Men dining out: What are you going to leave? Let's coordinate the tip here. Why? Well, when you split the check, we both have the exact same bill. So why don't we need the same thing? So, one of us doesn't look like an idiot. We're favoring Favored Nations all of a sudden for lunch.

CK: How to be a good diner. That's coming up later in the show. But first we're joined by Irene Yoo she's the co-owner of Orion bar in Brooklyn, also author of Soju Party, How to Drink (and Eat!) like a Korean. Irene, welcome to Milk Street.

Irene Yoo: Thank you so much for having me.

CK: I should have had a bunch of soju and other things with me, because we could have actually drunk our way through the interview, which should have been a lot more fun. So okay, so this is a kind of drinking I'm not familiar with. It has lots of options, lots of parts to it. So, let's start at the beginning, which is, what is soju?

IY: Yeah, so Soju is a Korean distilled liquor. There's kind of two different types of soju. The one you see most commonly commercially comes in these, like green, or now sometimes like blue, or like clear bottles, and it kind of drinks like, I would say, a very light vodka. Traditionally, Soju was a distilled liquor that was made with, like rice and noodles, which is a Korean fermentation starter and water. But the commercialized version of soju that you see in these green bottles is actually like the government has like one company that makes ethanol that they provide to all the different soju companies, and then that ethanol is cut down with like water and like flavorings and additives to sort of get their like special recipe. So, making the soju itself is very cheap. The bottle, creating these, like green glass bottles, accounts for a lot of the manufacturing cost, and in Korea, they have a really robust recycling program, so all of these bottles are collected and reused to produce and sell more soju.

CK: Okay, let's talk about, I love this part, the rules around drinking. Let's talk about pouring drinks that has a certain ritual to it, right?

IY: Yes, so the hierarchy around Korean drinking really stems from the hierarchy that exists in Korea. Like we're really cognizant of respecting the hierarchy of the people around us, whether that's respecting our elders, respecting people older than us or even within like, a corporate setting. So, there's this concept of making sure you're serving the people who are older than you or higher above you first. So, there's a lot of like you have to feel out, is this person older than me, or we just explicitly ask as well. So, I think that's what's really interesting, was that you start in this really, like, rigid pouring for you, and then you pour for me, you never pour your own drink. And then maybe as the night goes on, you sort of, like, start to break down those barriers.

CK: Yeah, I found that really interesting. You never pour your own drink. Is that because hospitality rules, sort of state that other people should pour for you.

IY: Yeah, I think it's a little bit of like, don't drink by yourself. We'll drink with you. But then also like, you know, I'll serve you. You serve me. It's very much a reciprocal thing.

CK: So, then you talk about going out for the evening, and you say, I know I'm strapping in for multiple rounds. So, you move locations as you go on. You know, it's a little nomadic, right?

IY: Definitely, I think it it's fun because it offers a change of scene, and also it sort of implicitly offers an exit strategy.

CK: So, the places you go to. Are these places really designed for small plates of food and drinking, almost like tapas? Or what places you're going to?

IY: I think it's actually a little bit the other way around in Korea. In Korea, alcohol is so cheap that most of the restaurants and places that serve alcohol are making their money off food. And in Korea, it's all about big portions, about sharing. So you go to a restaurant, and the idea is that, like the food is first, and then the alcohol sort of comes around it. So, with Korean style drinking, you're almost never drinking without there being food present.

CK: So, if you said, hey, let's, let's go to Seoul and spend a week eating and drinking, what are three or four things you’d tell me, things not to do, or things to do to sort of make sure I don't make a complete ass of myself when I'm in Korea.

IY: Well, I will say that, you know, in this book, I talk a lot about, like, rituals and rules and, you know, I think it is more like in fun. But I would say that if you stopped right off the plane, the first place you should go is the Korean convenience store, because that is where you will find everything you need to drink Korean style. So obviously you'll find your soju. So, you got, like, the the range of snacks and ramens and foods that you can eat alongside your drinking is all there. But then, most importantly, they have these, like hangover cures. There's like, jellies and tinctures and bottles and so many (the hangover aisle). Yeah, they're everywhere. So that, I think is the most key thing.

CK: Is there a particular recipe or hangover cure? You know you might make yourself, you're not buying something in the store.

IY: Absolutely, in Korean culture, the hangover soup is so important that there is actually a dish called hangover soup. It's called haejangguk, and it basically contains all of the things you need to recharge and revitalize your immune system. It has, like soybean sprouts. It has like napa cabbage. It's a little bit spicy. It's very like restorative thing to sort of help you sweat out all the alcohol.

CK: So, what are some of the cocktails, or the way they mix these alcohols? You talk about a few of them?

IY: Yeah, my favorite is called a milky shot. It's basically equal parts soju beer and cider, which is like a Korean spray. And then you mix that in a glass, and you cover it with a napkin, and then you, like, slam it on your hand to, like, foam it up. And then, if you shoot that, it tastes like this Korean yogurt soda. And then there's other combinations, like the soju beer combo, which is called __. There's also a shot called kojin Gam le ju which translates to like you had a hard day, and with something sweet. So, in a glass, you build like half a shot of soju, half a shot of cola, and then you fill it with beer, and then you shoot the whole thing. So, when you drink it, you taste the soju first, and then the beer, and then ends with like that syrupiness from the coke.

CK: So, you're co-owner of Orion bar in Brooklyn. Are there certain things you serve at the bar that are particularly popular, especially Korean drinks, that they really stand out?

IY: One of our top sellers ever since we've opened is actually also a drink in the book. It's our space spam. It's like a spam cocktail, and so it bridges this gap between, like, my Korean upbringing in America. So, I was like, oh, wouldn't be really cool to, like, have a drink that tastes like spam. And I tried really, really hard to do that, and it did not work, because, like, fat washing spam doesn't really do anything, and I don't know it just, like, didn't really work to translate spam into a drink. So instead, went more with, like, a tiki cocktail that's inspired by the ethos of spam, I guess. So, it's a little bit spicy, it's a little bit smoky, and then this at the bar we serve frozen in a plastic spam can. So that's been very Of course. So that's been very popular.

CK: What is it called?

IY: Space spam.

CK: Space spam. So, I'm listening to this now. I'm intrigued. Give me a couple of ideas. So, I go to the liquor store, and I'm going to come home and try to make a couple of different cocktails, Korean style. What would be a couple of simple recipes I might want to make.

IY: My favorite recipes that I really recommend from the book is to try making infused soju and using that as a basis for classic cocktails like making a juju soju and then using that for the base of, like, my Juju beach and Negroni, you know, in the book and in this talk, we've talked a lot about, like Korean style drinking, but I think that there's very much a place for soju to live on your liquor shelf and play a role in making, sort of a lot more like American style cocktails.

CK: Irene, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much. It's really, it's been a lot of fun.

IY: Thank you so much, Chris. It was lovely to talk to you.

CK: That was Irene Yoo. Her new book is called Soju Party. Now I'm joined by my co-host, Sara Moulton, to answer a few of your cooking questions. Sara is, of course, the star of Sara's Weeknight Meals on public television. Her latest book is Home Cooking 101. So, Sara so you know, later in the show, we have a segment about restaurant etiquette, what not to do in a restaurant. So, I thought, since you've worked in restaurants, both as a wait person and as a chef, is there some behavior that you find is beyond the pale in terms of etiquette?

Sara Moulton: You know, I'm very old fashioned in this way. I'm tired of the cell phone at the table. It's true for home too. You know, having it out, checking it, constantly, looking at it, rather than talking to each other. It's almost like there's somebody else at the table besides the people at the table. So that drives me bananas. How about you?

CK: That does really bother me, but I the thing that really bothers me the most and is totally unforgivable if someone mistreats a server (Yeah) I just have no patience for that.

SM: I agree. Having had been at the receiving end of a lot of bs when I was a waitress, I couldn't agree with you more.

CK: So how did you deal with someone who was out of control? Did you have a way of dealing with them?

SM: You know, I'm of the kill them with kindness, or just show them with your response. How they're ridiculous. I never spit at anybody's anything,

CK: But you thought about pouring the coffee over the head.

SM: Oh yeah, I thought it. But once you, once you've waited on tables, you always have that mentality that you really care for the staff, and also, we all tip really well.

CK: It's a brutal joke. (It is) yeah, yeah. Okay, let's take some calls.

SM: Welcome to Milk Street. Who's calling?

Caller: This is Penny T___

SM: Hi. Where are you calling from?

Caller: Charlottesville, Virginia.

SM: Well, welcome. How can we help you?

Caller: Okay, my question was, what kind of roast beef would my mom have cooked so beautifully when I was growing up, we couldn't afford, you know, really expensive cuts of meat. She's 99 and I asked her, and she doesn't remember exactly how she cooked roast beef, but I remember, I think, that she braised it in a pan, maybe on the stove top, and then put it in the oven, and to me, it came out so beautifully. Maybe it's because I'm trying to shortcut and not braise it and waste a pan put in another one in the oven. But I'm wondering, if you all have some secrets

SM: Are we talking about roast beef, or are we talking about pot roast? Because roast beef, you don't braise,

Caller: I don't like pot roast because it's too done, but I remember her cutting it in slices

SM: When you use the term braise, was there liquid involved?

Caller: No, just salt and pepper and braising the… all sides were browning it.

SM: Browning, you mean, indeed, you mean roast beef, the old-fashioned roast beef.

Caller: I'm looking at the Betty Crocker cookbook, and I think she had like

SM: A rump roast rump roast makes sense. So, you can do the reverse sear. And the point of the reverse sear is, when you cook it at 250 you know how a lot of times, you know, right next to the crust. It'll be very, very well done all around until you get to the very center, and only that part is really the temperature you wanted it to be, unless you're a well-done fan. When you do the reverse sear, the whole thing from top to bottom is the temperature you want it to be. And you have to decide what that temperature is taking into account carry over cooking time. So, you cook it to that temperature. When it's reached that temperature, and you really should get a meat thermometer, they're not that expensive. And then you take it out and you sear it in the end, and it's yummy.

CK: Most roast beef is made from the round, which is the hip down, and that's very lean meat. And so it has to be cooked rare or medium rare, because if you cook it anymore, it'll just be totally unpalatable, and you have to slice it really thin. I think the first thing is, what cut Are you going to use? I would probably get a roast out of the short loin. There's the chuck from the front of the animal, the chuck, the ribs, the loin, the short loin, the short lines between the round and the loin. Then you have two choices. You can brown it on top of the stove to start, and you can use some spices and salt and other things, put it in a low oven until it comes up to 120 maybe on the inside, and then take it out and let it sit. It will come up. It's it's four- or five-pound roast probably it'll gain five degrees. So maybe you cook it to 115 to 120 The other choice is what Sara said, which is, start in a low oven, take it out when it's almost ready, and then finish it in a very hot oven. Or you can finish it on top of the stove, which is a little messier. But the key to all of this is the cut. The short loin is the better shot than the round. The round is always going to be somewhat livery, tasting and dry, yeah, give the short loin a shot in a low oven. See what happens.

Caller: Okay, excellent

CK: Penny, thank you.

Caller: Yeah. I really appreciate it.

CK: Take care.

Caller: You too. Bye.

CK: This is Milk Street Radio. If you want to become a better cook, give us a ring. 855-426-9843, that's 855-426-9843, or email us at questions at Milk Street Radio.com. Welcome to Milk Street who's calling?

Caller: Hi, this is Michelle. I'm calling from Missouri City, Texas.

CK: Where's Missouri City, Texas?

Caller: It's about 15 miles south of Houston.

CK: Oh, okay, how can we help you?

Caller: I made an apple blackberry pie, and it was delicious. I put it in the oven first thing in the morning, was really careful with it. Took it out. It looked beautiful, left it to cool, brought it to the table to serve it, and when I cut into it, it looked as though I had poured a two-liter bottle of grape juice into a pie crust. And I was mortified and panicked, and ran back to the kitchen, and I used a turkey baster to suck all the juice out of the pie, and then I scooped out the fruit, which was delicious. The apples and the blackberries were very tasty together, and sort of crumbled the pie crust on top. (Good for you). Make a makeshift crumble. (Excellent) Served it with some vanilla ice cream, and that was great, but it wasn't a pie and I would really like to not go through all that trouble to make a crumble?

CK: Well, you only made one mistake, and that is, you should have sliced it in the kitchen before, yes, and then you could have said you have a crumble or a grunt or a slump or whatever,

SM: make up your own name.

CK: Yeah, you make up a new word, and then everything would have been fine. What kind of did you use flour or some other thickener in the filling?

Caller: Yes, there was sugar, of course, brown sugar and white sugar, as well as two and a half tablespoons of corn starch.

CK: I think the problem is with fruit like berries, tapioca is really the best thing to use. Corn Starch is finicky, especially if it gets overheated or especially when there's a lot of acid around. And those blackberries, I would think the juice was pretty much destroyed the thickening power of the corn starch. So, what you should have used was tapioca flour, or minute tapioca, or you can just take tapioca, throw the food processor and turn it into a powder. Tapioca does a great job of thickening berries and forget the back of the package, they'll tell you to use, like a tablespoon of tapioca per cup of fruit, or something crazy, I would use about half as much as they recommend, but that will definitely set it for you. Corn Starch is not good for fruit thickening at all, especially berries, very juicy, acidic. But you've learned a lesson, which is a great lesson, which is, you can tell people anything you want, and they'll believe you when it comes to cooking. So just, you know, just make it up afterwards, and no one's going to know the difference, but that'll solve your problem.

Caller: Oh, great. Thanks very much.

SM: I agree with Chris on both counts, the solution, but also what you did. And as he said, you just, you just, should have done it in the kitchen. Julia Child had a phrase, which was, never apologize, never explain, whatever you're serving to your guest is the best thing you ever made. And had you been able to reassemble in the kitchen and present as such with a new name, you know, you would have won, and I'm sure you won anyway, nobody's ever as hard on you as you are.

Caller: I did. I did. I had very gracious guests who would have been complimentary no matter what I served them, but it did taste good in the end.

CK: So no, I bet it was.

Caller: I count that as a win.

SM: Flavor trumps everything, really, I think.

CK: But just use tapioca that'll take care of their problem.

SM: Yes

Caller: Okay, I'll try that. Thank you.

SM: All right,

CK: Take care.

SM: Okay, bye, bye,

Caller: Bye bye.

CK: You're listening to Milk Street Radio coming up the new rules for dining out. Hey, Milk Street radio listeners for this year's Thanksgiving episode, Dominique Ansel is joining me to solve your biggest Thanksgiving baking questions. If you need new recipes, new inspiration or maybe a pie making tutorial, email us at questions at Milk Street radio.com. Again, please send your Thanksgiving baking questions to questions at Milk Street Radio.com and we'll be in touch. Thank you.

This is Milk Street radio I'm your host. Christopher Kimball. You know, going out to eat is supposed to be fun, but with restaurants getting more and more expensive, our expectations are now higher than ever, and the rules for dining out are complicated. For example, how should we handle ourselves when we don't get our way. Here's a scene from a show that talked a lot about restaurant etiquette. HBO’s Curb Your Enthusiasm.

TV clip: Hello, everybody. I will be your server for today. What can I get started for you guys thinking? Scrambled eggs? Yes, me too, pancakes. We are actually already onto the lunch menu. Yeah. What? 11 o'clock, we switch over to the lunch menu. What? No… it's 11:10 that's not 11. What's the difference? Just eggs, you know? I mean, those are the rules so. I can't eat a beet pear salad at 11am. Yeah. Okay. You know what? I see, there's a cobb salad on the menu, right? Right? Yeah, there are eggs in the Cobb salad, correct? Okay, so take the eggs from the Cobb salad, take the bacon from the Cobb salad, and put it on some toast. I see what you're trying to do there. You're you're looking for a breakfast loophole. It's not going to work and you're not the first person to try.

CK: Going out to eat is a social minefield. So, to help us navigate it all, we're joined now by writer Maggie Hennessy, whose new column for Bon Appetit is all about restaurant etiquette. Maggie, welcome back to Milk Street.

Maggie Hennessy: Thank you for having me such a pleasure.

CK: You know we could talk all day about this, because, as many people have had so many weird experiences in restaurants. But let me start with this. I have many children, and over the years, I have brought them to restaurants, never an expensive restaurant. And you talk about this a lot, so should you ever bring children, young children, to an upscale restaurant? Is that ever okay?

MH: So, this is an interesting one, because it feels like we're in this era where we have this, like new guard of restaurants that are chef driven, but they're sort of hanging their hat on being very casual. So, it felt important to kind of revisit the question in the sense of like we're talking specifically about a multi course tasting menu experience. In that case, I would say no. Even though there are restaurants that will accommodate like to the nth degree, they designate spaces for feeding or calming, for stroller parking. If the kids are old enough and the parents are okay, the server will whisk them back to the kitchen to help prepare dessert. Right, this is like

CK: Wait, hold on,

MH: Yes, this is the thing. Yes, this is a thing at Ever in Chicago, they will do this. But I think from speaking to parents, from speaking to restaurants as well, particularly tasting menu restaurants, it seems like the overall feeling is like, well, this might happen once in a blue moon, you know, if someone's traveling and they had made a reservation a long time ago, they have their kids. They can't get a sitter. We can accommodate because we're trying to hang our head on this level of hospitality, but truthfully, it's an adult experience that would be lost on a lot of little kids, and it's not setting them up for success. You know, in terms of attention span, tiny plates, waiting, there's just a whole lot.

CK: So, let's talk about bad food. I had some pasta in New York a few years ago, and it was half cooked. I don't mean al dente. I mean it was actually not cooked through. And I didn't, you know, I didn't send it back. I figured, like, I'm just not going to come here again. So how do you resolve that, like, when do you send food back? How bad does it have to be to send it back?

MH: I struggle with this one a lot because one, I don't like confrontation, and two, I don't want to take over the mood of the meal, because it feels like even if the food is amazing, the goal of going out to eat is to have a good time with the people you're with. So, I feel like what I would do is pull the server aside and just say this pasta is not cooked to my liking. Can you bring me like this instead and just sort of nip it in the bud as quickly as possible, not laden with passive aggression

CK: Well, it's also not the server's fault.

MH: Yeah, exactly, right, exactly. They should not take offense to this, right? Theoretically, it's just, you again. Don't always want to cause a scene. You know, being difficult. One column I hope I get to write down the road. I had a woman reach out to me, and she said, we used to go out to eat all the time with this couple, but one of them was so persnickety that they, you know, it was like changing absolutely everything. You know, every cocktail had to be totally bespoke to their specs, all this stuff, right? And it's to the point where they don't want to go out with this person. And it's like their friendship is kind of faded because of it.

CK: No, forget it.

MH: This is the funny thing, isn't it? About going out to eat, is like our human behavior is on display in a semipublic place for better or worse.

CK: Well, the worst is, I do this all the time. I'm terrible at making choices in menus. I don't know (me too). And I order something, I ordered the worst possible thing, and the person sitting across from me ordered like the best possible thing. And I'm just going like, okay, I've completely ruined this experience, and I'm desperate to go, look, I'll pay just like, give me the other thing, please, God, but I don't do that. Another problem is, you need to get the server's attention, and they purposely do not make eye contact because they just don't have time to deal with your request at the time. Or I'm just making that up.

MH: You know, it's possible. I do think a lot of times, servers are juggling so many different things, and they're sort of thinking like two or three steps ahead of what they're doing in that exact moment. So, I feel like giving the benefit of the doubt overall that it's not intentional. But I am shocked by how many people who work in restaurants who have told me they get snapped at, shouted at, like, people just get furious that they're not being seen, and they kind of revert to like, toddler behavior. Yeah, so, you know, it's hard when there's hostility kind of coming from the other side that is visceral.

CK: You also talk about dark restaurants. And I have a great story. Years ago, when Julia was still alive and lived in Cambridge, we used to go out to dinner occasionally, and I took her out to a well-known Italian restaurant outside of town. And we got there, they put us in this sort of alcove, and it was super dark. I mean, it was really dark,

MH: Like, could you see each other's faces?

CK: Barely, and Julia, in her inimitable voice, called the waiter over on two separate occasions, said, could you please turn the lights up a little. Yes, Mrs. Child, but nothing happens. Nothing happens. Nothing happens. So, she has this huge carry all right? And she opens it up and she takes out a watchman's flashlight, one of those huge, 18 inch long, eight-pound flashlights, and turned it on, and the entire alcove was illuminated with her light. She couldn't read the bloody menu. And I just thought, good for her, you know, if they're not going to turn the lights on so I could read the menu, you couldn't read the menu.

MH: She took the power back.

CK: Yeah, she just, like, had this massive, you know, three battery operated flashlight.

MH: Now we just turn on our phone lights, which are like headlights to other people's eyes. It's terrible.

CK: But why do look, I mean, you know, the mood is fine and romantic and everything else, but I don't get the super dark restaurant thing.

MH: So I think with lighting, you know, like when I spoke to owners, they use words like cozy, private, romantic and like, people look really good in low light. They look good in candlelight. I don't know if that's scientifically proven, but the problem is, it's like, there's stuff that we have to do, like we have to read a menu. We kind of want to see our food. We want to see the people across from us. So, I think that the thing is, like diners and restaurant owners just don't agree on what constitutes bright enough for these spaces. Like Erin Boone is a designer at Boone interiors, and she says, like almost every time she visits the restaurant, she's designed after they open, she thinks they're too bright, and if she knows the owner well enough, she'll corner them and try to convince them to turn it back down. But the owners will say they cave to diners who say it's it's too dark, so they'll turn it up a little bit.

CK: So, let's talk about tables. You know, a few years ago, I read a book, great book, called A Waiter in Paris, and they talked a bit about how tables are assigned. So what do you do if you go to a restaurant and they walk you to, clearly, one of the worst tables in the house, and maybe you're there early and it's, you know, only 20% full, is it okay to say, gee, do you mind if we sit over there? Is that? Is that fair?

MH: I think so. You know what I like to do too, is like, oh, if it's, you know, you need the table back in an hour. We're happy to eat quicker.

CK: That's a good one yeah,

MH: Right because I've, I've noticed this reporting on whether walk ins get worse tables than folks with reservations. And the answer is like, almost unequivocally yes. So, you'll end up, you know, by the bathroom where you can smell the scented candle wafting while you're like, trying to eat grilled prawns.

CK: So okay, now we're going to talk about phones. I I was recently in another restaurant. I don't know. I don't usually go out too often, but I did last week, and there were three people

MH: You were going out specifically because you knew you were talking to me, and I appreciate that. I

CK: I, yes, I'm sending you the bill. Great, great. There were three people table, and this was a tavern kind of place. They I looked over all three of them were on their phones. (Oh, geez) no, either texting or reading or talking, and they weren't looking at each other, and they didn't do it the entire meal, but I would say 30% of the time. And I just want to go over like, why did you go out to dinner once you stay home and get takeout so you could reach your phone? So, what's what's the phone etiquette these days?

MH: Okay, so I am a champion for put it away. I spoke to this woman, Mariah Grumet Humbert, who founded old soul etiquette New York, for a piece that I'm getting published soon about whether or not you should have your cell phone on the table. And she said to me, when we think about the way we communicate with people, it's like over 55% of how someone receives us is through nonverbal behavior. So even if you just, like, take your phone out and put it face down in front of the person across from you, that might convey something that you don't even intend to convey. You're just sort of absently doing it. But one of the things that Mariah told me that I really loved was something a friend actually told her, if you wouldn't take a book out to read at that time, would you also take out your phone? It's a great moment to just be like, whoa. Like, what message am I sending? Because I noticed it too. Like, if I go out by myself, I'll use my phone as like an emotional crutch. But when you have someone with you, it's like, oh, you're most important to me, unless something more interesting happens on my phone. So, one of the things that Mariah told me that she does is she kind of has trained herself to put her phone away, take her headphones out anytime she enters a new space. So, like, even if she's going into a restaurant and she's going to have to immediately, like, pull up a reservation on her phone, the initial impulse is, like, take headphones out, put phone away, make eye contact. You know, like, the thing I'm doing right now is interacting with the host at this restaurant, and if it helps people. There was some research that came out in 2017 that says our phones are basically petri dishes. They carry 10 times more bacteria than a toilet seat. So, if you need further reminder, it's just kind of

CK: Well, thanks for sharing that. That's great. I really, it's worse than a bathroom seat.

MH: But okay, so I will say one tip too. If you do, if you're like, a caretaker of small children, elderly or, like, family members with needs, and you go out to eat with someone, tell them, I have someone at home, and I need to keep my phone out, or, like, keep it in your lap on vibrate, and then your phone won't be there. You can be 100. Remember what it's like to be totally present with another person?

CK: No, I I'm trying to remember. So okay, now you get the bill, and let's say you're with another couple, and they start going like, well, you guys had two cocktails, and we didn't, you know, like, we're not going to split this bill in half. You're going to pay your 62% and we'll pay the 38% because we didn't eat as much, which I think is, well, anyway, I'll see what you think about that. So, what do you do?

MH: I tend to err on the side of, if you have enough money to go out for this experience, like you have enough money to be extra generous, and if someone is feeling pinched, I'm cool to say that's fine. I'll pay more, you know, because I think it's like you also don't want to change the temperature of the experience, you know. And if that becomes a sticking point or awkward, it's just not worth it.

CK: But what's the etiquette of is my question from the person who's going to say, look, we'll pay 40. You pay 60 because you ate more, or you had the more expensive entree, you had, the, you know, the other truffles on top of the Talia telly. What's the etiquette of that person doing that to the bill? Is that okay? I think if you are pinched financially, it's absolutely okay. (I do too). But what if they have plenty of money, but they're just still trying to parse the bill

MH: And be cheap (Yeah) and, you know, I'm well enough call them out on it. If you don't, you know, I think again, it's about you're trying to just get through the evening. Then you just go, okay and call it a loss, and you do not go out to eat with them again. Because now, you know, I do think it's become theoretically easier, right, like there are places now where you order through a QR code and you can so if that's a thing,

CK: Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, let's stop there. I forgot to mention the QR code. I hate (I hate them too). I hate I It's like, I will ask for the bloody menu. (Me too). I don't want to order off digitally. What?

MH: Nope, I know. And that. It's part of the reason why the phone thing is such a problem, because diners aren't set up for success if the first thing they have to do is bury their face in their phone just to pick a cocktail, you know. I mean, come on now, give me a menu.

CK: Another small thing is, if you order dessert, or just, let's say and coffee, they'll ask you, Do you want coffee tea? And I'll say, y'all have a decaf espresso or something. The decaf espresso comes out in about 90 seconds, and then the dessert comes later, and what you really want is to eat the dessert and then finish with a coffee. (Yeah) so is it okay? I think it is to say to somebody, could you just bring the espresso at the very end of the meal? Is that okay?

MH: Yeah. And you know what? I love the idea of bringing that back. I think we kind of got away from insisting on that. I think you would almost say, yeah, we'll have dessert. Can you hold off bringing because the right, you'll drink that in two little sips, right? (So, it's done) Exactly, and that should be the last thing, because it gives you a little pep. And then you you can rise out of your chair with purpose. And so I think we should reclaim asking for the espresso right at the like with the bill. You know, bring, bring the bill in my espresso. Exclamation point

CK: Please, yes. And I just want to say, everyone who works in the restaurant industry, I have enormous amount of respect for and appreciation, because it's an, it's a brutal business. hours are terrible. The alcohol dealing with the public all the time. So, all of my complaints were minor complaints

MH: Well, and you know, if complaints arise, it's important to acknowledge when you're being a jerk.

CK: I do that. You know, that's how I go through life. I Every sentence starts out, I may be a jerk, as I say to my kids but I'm your jerk. (That's right) Maggie, it's been this has really been fun. Thank you so much.

MH: Oh, so fun. And just these questions that come up over and over, I don't know the answers to all of them, but I find them all fascinating, and I love unpacking them. So, thank you for the opportunity.

CK: My pleasure. Thanks. That was Maggie Hennessey. You can find her column on restaurant etiquette at Bon Appetit.com. You're listening to Milk Street Radio Coming up the stories behind Your favorite pasta shapes.

I'm Christopher Kimball, and you're listening to Milk Street Radio right now. My co-host, Sara Moulton and I will be answering a few more of your cooking questions.

SM: Welcome to Milk Street. Who's calling?

Caller: Hi. This is Katie.

SM: Hi, Katie, where are you calling from?

Caller: Winter Garden, Florida.

SM: How can we help you today?

Caller: Well, I have been baking sourdough bread for a few years now, to great success, I've been using the King Arthur Flour no knead sourdough recipe, and I've also been making baguettes, and I've been using kind of a tweaked internet recipe, but it's a yeast dough, not a sourdough. And I was wondering if there's a way to convert my yeasted baguette recipe into a sourdough recipe.

SM: Well, here's the very, very short answer. I wouldn't try to convert one to the other, because that involves a whole bunch of percentages and, you know, little details. Instead, I’d go back to the original source or another trusted source and just find a really good recipe for a sourdough baguette. (okay) Now I mean, why reinvent the wheel, particularly when it comes to baking? I'm sure there's one out there. But Chris, do you have any thoughts?

CK: Yes, the basic ratio, I think, is roughly four cups of bread flour to cup and a half of water. You know, if you look at pizza dough and bread dough comes out about that. So. what you could do is figure out you've got a cup of starter, I don't know how much you're going to use, and then just break that down into its component parts, roughly the ratio of four and one and a half and then take that out of the recipe you're using. So, reduce the flour by, you know, two thirds of a cup, or something in the water by a third of a cup, or whatever it works out to and then just give that a shot. That's not going to be perfect, because the starter is a different thing than just flour and water. It's been sitting around, but that's what I would do. And, you know, try it once. It's going to be edible, you know, it's not going to be a disaster. I have made baguettes at home. I did it twice, and I'm now in the Baguettes Anonymous Club, which means I'm never going to make is that category. There's a bakery two blocks away from my house, which makes much better Vegas than I can make. So, I assume you do this because you really love doing this, right?

Caller: Yeah, it's definitely a fun food project to do, and experimenting is part of the fun of it for me. And I did try to do my own mass conversion one time to a very sticky, perforated sheet pan of inedible croutons, basically. So, I'm going to just try to find a more successful, pretested recipe.

CK: The other thing you can do, if you've been making bread a long time, you know what the texture should be like, (Sure) So if it's too wet, you add flour. If it's too dry, you probably know the texture right. So, as you're kneading the dough in the mixer or by hand, you can adjust it so you don't have to get it perfectly right. And you know after 10 minutes exactly what a bread dough is supposed to be like. I just did a pizza dough. I just made up a recipe last weekend for a birthday party, and you know, I just kept fiddling with it as it was kneading so that's the other way to go, if you like adventure, adventures in bread baking. So, I commend you, because puff pastry and baguettes are the two highest arts in the kitchen. I think are most difficult things to do. So anyway, give that a shot and let us know.

SM: Yes

Caller: Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time.

CK: Thanks again

SM: Okay. Katie, bye, bye.

CK: This is Milk Street radio. Sara and I are ready to answer your questions, so give us a call. 855-426-9843, that's 855-426-9843, or just email us at questions at Milk Street Radio.com. Welcome to Milk Street. Who's calling?

Caller: Hey, this is Luke from Chicago.

CK: How can we help?

Caller: Occasionally, I like to cook a stir fry or a fried rice. Well, just take whatever I have on hand, cook it in a walk and then finish it with a sauce that consists of either Tamari or soy sauce and some sesame oil. And so my question is, when I'm cooking the ingredients in the wok, do I still season them with salt, as I would if I were sauteing vegetables for some other kind of dish, or do I skip that because I'm adding the tamari mixture?

CK: That's an excellent question. Well, first of all, you probably, if you have meat of any kind in this or shrimp or whatever, you're probably marinating it briefly in a soy sauce mixture. So, the meat is going to be very well seasoned. Secondly, as you said, you have the sauce, and it's going to be pretty salty. Other things you could add to the sauce is shaoxing wine. That goes great. You can get a bottle of that, and it's very inexpensive in a Chinese supermarket, some mirin also, you could add to that as well, and you can balance that out, but you don't need extra salt, because you're going to have so much salt in the marinade for the meat, or whatever, the main tofu, and you're going to have the sauce be pretty salty. I would not add extra salt.

Caller: Okay

SM: Luke, can I ask you a question? When you say you have leftovers in the fridge, do you mean raw meat, or do you mean cooked meat?

Caller: Usually, I'm using cooked meat. But occasionally it could be wrong.

SM: I would have, you know, been inclined to say the same thing Chris did, but cooked meat would behave differently, and you don't want to overcook it because it's already been cooked. So, when I'm faced with situation like you have with cooked meats, I generally just put them in fried rice and add ginger and garlic.

Caller: Okay

CK: You could also try the classic, you know, fish sauce, lime juice and a little sugar as a sauce too. It's an easy way to just to switch up a stir fry.

Caller: Great. Well, thanks for your answer. I appreciate it.

SM: And good for you for using up leftovers. I love leftovers.

Caller: I love to finish things that I have on hand.

CK Luke thanks for calling. Appreciate it.

SM: Yeah, Luke, thank you. Bye, bye.

CK: This is Milk Street Radio. Now let's check in with our friends, Grant Barrett and Martha Barnette of A Way with Words. Hey, Grant and Martha, what's going on?

Grant Barrett: Hi Chris.

Martha Barnette; Hey, Chris. Well, Grant and I have been talking about the fact that there's nothing like a plate of fresh pasta, but you know, the names of those noodles are every bit as delicious.

Grant Barrett; Yeah. You know, in Italy, the naming of Italian hard pasta is highly regional, with different terms for the same shapes in different areas, depending on where you're eating. But outside of Italy because of the simplification that comes from food industrialization, most people only know a few of those names. So Martha and I just kind of wanted to share some of these other names of pastas that you might find in Italy.

CK: We're going to be here for about six days.

MB: That's true,

CK: because there are 1000s of names.

GB: There's so many.

MB: Yeah, we've tried to narrow it down. That's not easy. But take, for example, rigatoni. I mean, that's a good example of a pasta that has a whole lot of different regional Italian names. Now we're talking, of course, about the thick ridged tube that gets its name from the Italian word rigato, which means ridged. And the Oni in rigatoni indicates a larger size, sort of the same way that in English, we might add Zilla to a word, or enormous rigozilla.

GB: But you know, in Naples or in Salerno, or around there, you might hear that same pasta called bombardoni, and that oni suffix is still there, meaning large, and it refers to this medieval canon. So it means big canons.

MB: And then in Tuscany and Emilia Romana, which includes, of course, cities like Parma and Bologna, rigatoni is often called manica, which means sleeves. And that's because, of course, it does sort of look like a bowl full of shirt sleeves, and sometimes you'll hear it called manica regate, which means ridged sleeves. But that same root for sleeve is also in the word manicotti. It's sort of the same idea, sleeve of pasta.

GB: One more synonym for rigatoni. Treveli. Treveli, trevely means drill. And it's because sometimes the ridges on the pasta twist, making it look like a drill bit.

CK: That's pretty good. You get extra points. Okay

MB: Yeah, and there are lots of familiar pasta names that are all quite picturesque, you know, like farfalle, what we call bow tie pasta in English farfalle is butterflies and linguine is little tongues and vermicelli is little worms and Ferretti these little mushrooms. And another one that I really like is dente di Cavallo, which is (teeth of something) yeah, teeth of the horse.

GB: So, some of these pasta names are about what they look like, and some of them are a little less obvious in origin. For example, take pappardelle. It's a wide, flat ribbon pasta, typically anywhere from a half to an inch wide. And if it's fresh, it's probably got rippled edges. Now, the word pappardelle comes from the Italian verb papare, meaning to eat hungrily or to stuff for oneself with food, which is probably what you would be doing if you appreciate the meaty, wild game sauces that pappardelle is often served with.

CK: You know, it's interesting because I was in Rome a year or so ago, and I was told by a local that for Italians, pasta with sauce is about the pasta, whereas in the States, pasta with sauces. About the sauce, so they take their pasta very seriously.

GB: For Americans, pasta is a sauce delivery device, (yes, yes)

MB: right and speaking of filling somebody up, there's a really strange pasta name that reflects Italy's complicated relationship with religion isn't,

GB: Yeah, it's strozzapreti it means the preist strangler, and it's it's not about committing crime. It's about the fact that the priests would pretty much go from house to house, and you were expected to feed them, and they were known to love their food. It's kind of a stereotype of the clerical class, and so they were known to have large appetites, and strozzapreti was apparently so delicious it would fill up even a priest.

MB: Yeah. And speaking of priests, there's also cappelletti, which means little hats, like little priests hats, and Ave Maria, which is small pasta __ that are named after the Ave Maria prayer. And we can't let go of the topic of pasta and religion without speaking about another name for a pasta, the one that we call tortellini.

Around bologna it goes by the name umbilicus sacri, which means sacred navels. And there's a story behind that, because supposedly, the goddess Venus happened to visit a nearby inn, and when she did, the innkeeper peeked through a door at her, but all he could see through that little peep hole was her belly button, and he was,

CK: wait, where's this story going? Come on, Martha.

GB: It’s Milk Street safe, I promise.

CK: All he could see was

GB/MB: her navel.

CK: Okay,

MB: That's right. And he was just so captivated by this beautiful, beautiful navel that he ran to his kitchen and created these sacred navels, these, which I love so much more than tortellini, (yeah)

GB: All right. Chris, finally, in Italy, weddings may have more than one bride, and that's because ziti has been traditionally served at weddings, and the word ziti has had many meetings, but a very common one in many Italian dialects is bride. It's a shortening and plural of macaroni de Zita, which means brides macaroni. And then, you know, even in the US, you will often find baked ziti at big family celebrations like weddings.

CK: You know, you can't say Italy is not romantic and has just wonderful stories, right?

MB: It's true

GB: Absolutely.

MB: And you know, there is that lovely Calabrian saying that translates is there's no grieving without laughter, no wedding without tears, and Chris we’ll add, there's no parting without sorrow,

CK: Oh Lord.

GB: And with that we say goodbye. Chris

GB/MB: Ciao.

CK: Ciao bella, take care, guys. Thanks.

GB; Take care.

CK: That was Grant Barrett and Martha Barnette hosts of A Way with Words. Martha just published a new book called Friends with Words, Adventures in Language Land. That's it for today. Don't forget, you can find more than 300 episodes of Milk Street [email protected] or wherever you get your podcasts, we put together a collection of our all-time favorite recipes for Milk Street. You can find that collection at Milk Street Radio.com. You can also find us on Facebook, at Christopher Kimball's Milk Street. On Instagram at 177 Milk Street. We'll be back next week with more food stories and kitchen questions and thanks, as always, for listening.

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio is produced by Milk Street in association with GBH co-founder, Melissa Baldino, executive producer Annie Sinsabaugh, Senior Editor, Melissa Allison, Senior Producer, Sarah Clapp, producer, Caroline Davis, Assistant Producer Mari Orozco, additional editing by Sydney Lewis, audio mixing by Jay Allison at Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts. Theme music by Toubab Krewe. Additional music by George Brendel, Egloff, Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio is distributed by PRX